#149 Global Update on Sex-Based Rights with Spanish and German Feminists

This May, feminists around the world greeted the news that efforts to uphold women’s sex-based rights were being upheld both in the Spanish and German national Congress:

• On May 18th, Spain voted against attempts to introduce sex self-identification into Congress (in large part, thanks to the abstention of the left-wing PSOE political party).

• The next day, on May 19th, through a couple of legislative proposals, Germany’s Congress also rejected similar efforts.

While this may represent temporary measures, it is important to note the significant opposition from grassroots feminist in achieving this outcome, recognise their efforts and learn about the next steps in this continuing battle.

In this podcast, FiLiA Spokeswoman Raquel Rosario Sanchez speaks with Tasia Aránguez Sánchez from Spain and Victoria Feuerstein from Germany about these recent developments.

Listen Here (transcript below):

Tasia Aránguez Sánchez and Victoria Foierstine

Tasia is a Philosophy of Law professor at the University of Granada. She is a Doctor of Law and member of the Legal Advisory Board at the Contra el Borrado de las Mujeres (Against the Erasure of Women) feminist organisation.

Victoria is a researcher, writer and radical feminist activist. She campaigns against sex self-ID laws in Germany and founded Fairness für Frauen (Fairness for Women), an informational resource about the proposed laws in Germany and is working on forming associations for women's rights. Together with a strong network of women, she is campaigning for women's rights in German law through getting public and media attention and providing information to politicians and journalists among other things.

You can access the Denton’s sex self-identification international policy document mentioned in this podcast here. Dentons is a UK law firm advocating that children worldwide should be able to change their legal sex without parental notification or approval.

Please follow Tasia and Victoria on social media and the feminist work of Contra Borrado and Fairness für Frauen on their websites.

Transcript:

Raquel Rosario Sanchez from FiLiA in conversation with Tasia and Victoria.

Raquel: Welcome to the FiLiA podcast. My name is Raquel Rosario Sanchez, and I am the spokesperson for FiLiA. Today we are delighted to speak with both Spanish and German feminists about the legislative news that we received a few weeks ago, in which both national legislatures rejected proposals to include sex self-identification into law.

We will speak with Victoria Feuerstein who is a researcher, writer and radical feminist campaigner. She campaigns against sex self-ID laws in Germany and is the founder of FF Frauen.

Tasia Aránguez Sánchez is the Professor of Philosophy, the Philosophy of Law at the University of Granada. She is a Doctor of Law and she's part of the legal team campaigning against the erasure of women in Spain.

Tasia and Victoria. Welcome to our podcast. You are both the women of the hour, and everyone's very excited to hear your experiences. So how are you both? How about if we start with Victoria?

Victoria: Thank you very much. I'm very fine. I'm very happy to be here.

Tasia: I'm very happy. Very pleased to be here with you.

Raquel: Before we start talking about the law, can you tell us about your personal feminist awakening? How did you become involved in the women's liberation movement?

Tasia: Okay. I think that the moment of awakening for me was becoming a mother because men don't do their part. And I think it's a big scam. There is a systematic exploitation of our work.

Also, I joined at the feminist movement because I have endometriosis. One of the symptom of endometriosis is extreme menstrual pain, but the doctors tell you that this pain is normal. So I think that society doesn't believe women.

Raquel: Yes. And we can talk about it later, those bit late later on. Victoria, how about you? How did you become involved in the women's liberation movement?

Victoria: I'm in my early thirties and I've been anti-sexist my whole life because I was always very aware of my sex and the restrictions and expectations that come with it.

But I wasn't very into feminism for a long time, because all I knew was queer feminism and I didn't get what should be empowering about pole dancing and prostitution and the kind, because prostitution is legal in Germany since 2002. And Germany is the brothel of Europe.

I've become gender critical mainly through Reddit a few years ago when women's subreddits were still allowed on Reddit it's a huge online platform to discuss several things, this is mainly it. And in summer of 2020, JK Rowling’s stands for women's rights were also broadly discussed in German media.

She's very popular here and lots of people were confused and didn't know, what was transphobic about her tweets or even what transphobia was. And then a few women began to tweet and we realised that there were plans for sex self-ID in Germany as well. And they were pretty far along and because of Corona all we had was social media and so, lots of feminist women found each other, mostly through social media or email and, this way I got to know some wonderful, wonderful, even older and way more experienced feminists who taught me a lot And this is why I’m here.

Raquel: Yes. And thank you for being here. It said on the news a few weeks ago that on Tuesday, the 18th of May the National Congress in Spain and on Wednesday, the 19th in Germany, that was the next day,

The Congress or Parliament, became worldwide news as a result of the decision of parliamentarians and Congress people to reject proposals to include sex self-identification into law. Can we talk a little bit about the current context of women's rights in your countries? And then can we talk about what happened that week? Can we start with Tasia first, because Spain was on the 18th Germany on the19th?

Tasia: Okay. Last week transgender groups tried to pass a law that says in Spain that says any man can change his legal sex by choice. The law considers ‘that ‘men without female identity are the real discriminated women.’

The law allows men to compete with women in sport, sex offenders to enter in women's prisons, this was the law. We stopped that law last week but now we are still fighting them.

Raquel: How did that happen? What happened before Congress voted against it? Was there a lot of pushback in feminist circles?

Tasia: Yes. There are several parties that were in favour of the law. That what the independents wanted and also the left, but, feminist people, we, tried to speak with the right parties, and also with the left parties.

In the end, the socialist party, simply both abstained. So with the, the votes of the right we gained but this is temporary. Yes. And the voting.

Raquel: Yes. And the voting, you had 78 votes against, there were 143 votes and the abstention was 120 votes in Spain. So I have one other question about this Spanish context.

So the proposals to include sex self-identification into Spanish law is coming from the Ministry of Equality, which informally advocates for the rights of women. So how come it is the Ministry of Equality that appears to be hell bent on, on passing these legislative proposals. Do you have an idea of why that may be?

 Tasia: Well, really the Party of the new left, which is the Ministry of Equality, they have an ideology which is post-modern and they are in favour of sexist exploitation and also the gender identity ideology, and they have, a compromise with the trust activist groups they are the trans activist groups have written this project.

This is not a project of law created by a politician. This is created by the same activist.

Raquel: Yeah, that's very interesting. Thank you, Tasha.

Victoria can you tell us about what happened on Wednesday, the 19th in Germany, that the situation that happened in Congress? And can you tell us what's the, what led to that moment when Congress voted No?

Victoria: Yes. For that, I have to, take a look back into, a few decades ago actually, because, we in Germany already have a law, it's a law for transsexualism since 1981. And it gives gender dysphoric people, the possibility to change their legal gender or sex.

The thing is, there is no linguistic distinction between those words in German. They're both called Geschlecht. So gender and sex is both called Geschlecht accurately. It would be called soziales geschlecht the social slate is this is gender. But it's often used the same. So you are already can change your first name and/or your legal gender or sex, whatever you call it.

And, since 2018 intersex people can register their sex under ‘diverse’, their legal sex. But this is not open to self-identification. Only for those who really have disorders of sexual development. so, people can’t come to the registry office and say, I'm intersex and diverse, you actually have to be this.

Right now the transsexual person, person willing to change their gender entry has to prove that she or he lives since at least three years as the preferred gender, whatever this means. And then there is a high possibility that this will not change. They have to show two assessments from two different experts.

Psychologists, that confirm that this is a serious request after that they have to talk to a judge. And if everything is approved, the change can start. No SRS needed. So a man with a penis can say, I'm a woman and this would be okay. At first it was also that those who had an operation could do the change, but, this was cancelled a few years ago.

So a normal man can say, I'm a woman. And if a psychologist says, okay, he really has the urge to be this, he can become a legal woman. And trans identified men are already competing in women's sports and have access to a lot of women's places, but not so much. This law like a few hundred a year.

It wasn't such a huge problem until recently. Maybe the media coverage is very small. I'm not sure about this because I had some cases, but I'm not sure how representative they are. and this is the actual state.

But this is not enough for the trans rights activists because now they push for self-identification, without any experts without assessment without the psychologist with the arguments that the process takes too long because it takes about nine months to change your legal gender or sex. And that the assessments are too expensive. They cost around 1000 to 2000 Euro. Even though everything else, including the operations is paid for by national health service and, even though there is access to financial aid, for those who don't have enough money. So they are already hugely supported if they qualify.  

Another argument for these new law proposals is that non binaries are unconsidered.

So non binaries are those who say are neither man nor women. And, the trans activists critique this is dehumanising that there is a need to prove good and serious intentions. So the bars are already pretty low, but not low enough. So, and the recent actions are that, since at least 2002, there were steady efforts to reform the current law.

Now they're pushing for it very hard. The first hearing in Germany, you have to have three hearings of new law proposals. And after the third one, it goes to different stance. And then has to be approved, et cetera, prepare, but the three hearings have to be approved. And the first hearing, for this law was in November the second, last year, 2020. The two parties of opposition, the Greens and the Liberals, the FDP, supported by two other parties, the SPD, Labour, and, the Left want to abolish the Transsexuellengesetz which I introduced before and install a new law, the self-determination law.

And in fact, I looked it up, the term transsexuality was completely erased in the new law proposal. So what are they demanding? Full self sex ID, once a year possible to change your legal sex just by going to the civil registry office, no psychologist, no assessment, nothing and following this, every man has access to women's facilities.

 So a man has to go into a registry office and the next day he can go into every women's space. And, there there's no need for proof of seriousness or stability of the wish to transition. So, you can say you can change, from day to day, if we want to, one proposal was that it's only once a year possible, but, another one was that it would be as you wish, you can just transgender, between the sexes as you want. so no gender dysphoria is needed anymore. But all the medical and procedures should be paid by compulsory health insurance and the patients are to choose autonomously which operations they want. So total free access to everything they want.

And the most shocking thing is that even 14-year-old kids should, decide to change their gender, even against the parents will and the 14-year-old kids can start medical procedures, including, genital operations, again without a proven gender dysphoria.

Raquel: 14-year-old children can, according to this law project, 14-year-old children can have surgery without their parents' consent?

Victoria: Yes. Yes.

Raquel: That is shocking.

Victoria: It's really shocking. If the parents don't say yes, a judge has to say yes, instead of the parents because they have to act for the child they will probably always say yes. So in fact there is no regulation. It's outrageous.

And the cherry on top is mis-gendering someone, if you mentioned the biological sex of someone who doesn't want to have this sex, like a man who wants to be a woman, if I call him a man, even by accident it would cost up to 2,500 Euros.

So I'm forced to lie. It's outrageous,

Raquel: Forced to lie under the threat of having to pay over 2000 euros. If you do not pronounce this coerced and compelled speech, that is shocking.

There were two drafts presented on May 19th. And the liberal draft was voted 181 in favour versus 461 against. So that was rejected. Then there was the green draft, which had 118. Yes. Versus 456 against, both were rejected.

So thank you for explaining all of that so thoroughly.

You did mention that efforts to remove all of this conditions that were placed in the laws that you already have that the pressure to erase all of that and replace it with sex self-identification started 2002 or 2012?

Victoria: The first proposal was in 2008 to make this easier because we have the law since the eighties.

Raquel: Do you have any idea of why there has been so much pressure to approve these legislative proposals? Because when you hear, listening to you speak, it is shocking.

I mean, 14 year olds are barely teenagers and also like the exorbitant fine of 2000 euros for accidentally using the incorrect sex to refer to someone that is shocking, both of these facts are shocking. So why do you think that there is so much pressure to force this into law?

Victoria: There are different theories, first of all, with the rejection we of course were happy, but we know that this is just because the fight for women's rights is a marathon, not a sprint it's for now a success, but, the Greens already said, we will keep on fighting. We will keep on pushing because they want this, they want this. This is one of their important issues.

Raquel: Why? if I'm a political party, why are they insisting on allowing surgery for teenagers without the approval of their parents?

Victoria: They call it human rights to have those surgeries. And they say it's a case of minority politics, because the Greens, call themselves feminists, which is, kind of hilarious if it wasn't so sad in the case of women's rights. We're not sure, actually, we're not sure why this is such an issue.

I know that the trans organisations have a law lobby for the German Bundestag So they are making huge political work with the politicians for years. And, we, women didn't know about this. I know from some politicians, that the trans lobby persons, lobbyists were there all the time and said, this is so important and everyone will die if we won't get those, laws.

And, you, everyone will love you and blah, blah, blah, you know, and, and they make just pressure. it's hard to understand why this is such a big thing and they try to sell it as if this would be a niche topic and no woman would be endangered by this or anything like this, even though there's no precaution against possible abuse.

Raquel: It sounds like this has been going on for a while. And it has been slipping under the radar. For example, Germany was considered to be the first European law to allow birth certificates to have an X meaning that the sex is in determinant. So, did this happen with no objections from feminists or was there opposition back then?

Victoria: The X is just for the diverse person or the intersex person I mentioned earlier, normal or a man or a woman without, disorders of sexual development cannot get this X only someone who is actually intersex. I think since the law was, installed, we're like 300 people who had this X and this was, covered in media. But, as this is in fact a topic which concerns, actually those who have it and not just a subjective feeling or something or an identity, but a physical issue. It wasn't a huge thing for feminist because there was no danger from this.

Raquel: Yes, you're right. and, and thank you for clarifying that.

So that was in November, 2013.

I ask you both, regarding the recent, the events that took place on May 18th and May 19th, were you personally involved in the feminist pushback against this legal proposals? Can we start with Tasia please?

Tasia: I am part of a platform that brings together women who oppose gender identity laws.

They are historical women of the socialist party but in our organization, they are women of different political views. In the association, in this organisation, there are professionals from different fields, philosophers, writers, lawyers, journalists, graphic designers and others. Me, in particular, I am part of the legal team, in this, department, we write technical reports of the self-identification law and send these reports to politicians, parties, and meet with them to demand they oppose laws and take them to the constitutional court, for example, the Party Popular take one of these regional laws to the constitutional court last month.

And this was very important to explain because, maybe we could, end with the self-ID through the constitutional court. But we know it's difficult, but it will be possible in that moment. And we study what is happening in Spain and in other countries, these are our tasks.

Raquel: And how about you, Victoria?

Were you personally involved in the feminist pushback against sex self-ID in Germany?

Victoria: Yes, I was. First, Tasia, this sounds lovely and I really, really hope that we will be able to form such an association as well in Germany. We planning to, but, we are just at the beginning because we started to realise what was happening only around last year, because most feminists, especially radical feminists were focused on prostitution because it's a huge problem here in Germany.

We started to connect to network and exchanged information. And then we began to organise when we really realised what was happening. I realised that there was no information available besides from Transgender sites information about those laws, nothing except the law proposals, the form of documents.

The only source was a radical feminist blog which, in number 16 March, 2020, you already interviewed, Manuela Schon from the blog for the FiLiA podcast. But it focuses mainly on sex trade and has around a dozen posts about the gender debates and trans activism, but nothing about the law. There was no information about the law.

So lots of women besides the JK Rowling debate, but there were no source about those laws. And especially not about what this would mean about women's rights, so we realised it was really necessary, then I, uh, personally set up, FF on the research et cetera, which dissects the law proposals in detail and, a lot of women inside and outside social media contacted me and asked what could be done.

And so we began to organise and became active and, the Greens who are very strong in Germany and our prognosis to gain 25% of the votes in the next election in September, are pushing hard for sex self-ID laws, and a few gender critical Green women stood up against the proposal a somewhat influential block which I work together. And we are networking a lot and are connecting with other women.

Raquel: Yes. thank you for letting us know. It's interesting how around the world it is indeed. It is up to individual women to have to go through their Congress paperwork, you know, to unpack what is happening because the intention is to pass all of these legislative proposals by stealth, without letting women know.

So Tasia, you are a doctor in law and a law professor. What are your main objections against sex, self-identification policy proposals?

Tasia: Spain has already a law. So, this law is, completely unnecessary. they allow in this moment, we have laws for legal sex change with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and only taking hormones for two years.

Surgery is not required, but the person who wants to have it, it is paid for the public health system. So Spain has trans law or already. So even more we are indignant, not this new law because it's not possible the new self-identity laws are more aggressive.

They are copying laws in other countries, such as Argentina. We have self-ID laws in all Spanish regions. It's not only something for the future, we have already these laws or self-identity. All these law are identical. They are written but by the trans activists associations and they already written to the political parties.

Now in Spain, the puberty blockers are not allowed from the age of eight and children are indoctrinated in schools. This is happening in Spain. Maybe not, not in the same scale that in United Kingdom, but it's happening. It's happening, especially in Catalonia, for example, a region where there is a lot of trans activists. And the first big victims are the kids. In the new law the minors can take at nine or eight the puberty blockers. And then at 16 they can take a cross sex hormones and can access surgery at 18 years.

But the first intention was that surgery was, where in 16 years, but then they, they changed this aspect of the project of law.

Also, in the new project, they put tens of thousands of euros, for offensive messages in social media. So for example, mis-gendering in Twitter and 100,000 Euros for a teacher who uses materials that denies gender identity, or not totally agree with that doctrine. For doctors who try to look for an alternative to the doctrine. So, if a doctor tries to look for other possible alternatives for treatment, this doctor can have a 100,000 sanctions. These are some of the principle defects or problems with the law.

Raquel: Sorry. Can you repeat those fines again? Are you talking about 100,000 Euros?  Sorry, can you repeat the fine again?  He's just joking.

Tasia: Wow. Yes. 100,000 Euros for the teacher who used these materials, which are not completely in accord with the doctrine, and for the doctors who don’t give affirmative therapy.

Raquel: There's an element that is so much about compelling speech and coercing, essentially the public to affirm a certain theory, because if this was all about peace and love, then why do you need to threaten people with fines of 100,000 Euros for mis-gendering or for seeking alternative treatment for children who are children, confused about the many things that children are often confused about?

So thank you for explaining that Victoria, you are a researcher and a feminist campaigner. What are your objections against sex identification in policy proposal?

Victoria: Oh, I have a lot of points but first I want to add that in Germany, we already have a conversation ban similar to what Tasia, told before.

In May 2020 a law against the healing of homosexuality was, installed, which is good, but in the last minute, the trans activists packed to it into it. And so now it is also forbidden to question the wish of a patient to transition. That means that only affirmative care is allowed. Otherwise the therapist risks a huge fine, but I don't know if it's huge as in Spain, and after that, a lot of therapists gave up this segment because it was unethical and too dangerous for them to practice affirmative only therapy for trans kids and adults without being allowed to question the reason for transition.

So, yeah, this is I think it's outrageous. My main concerns are: the first thing I see is that, the trans activists mainly attack women, and women's rights organisations for example, we have a non-profit, women's rights organisation who is successfully working against female genital mutilation, forced marriage, honour killings, forced prostitution and domestic violence since 1981. And they also had a few problems and shit storms from males and trans rights activists who were mad that they weren't included in the engagement. So this also peaked a lot of feminists.

So this is also why, we are, forming new associations for example, a business fair play for frauen or the German department of the WHRC.

And, my main concern is, not only that the legal sex or the meaning of sex and of women is erased by those proposals because it becomes only a question of subjective feeling and not of material reality and the material, our bodies are female sex is the reason why we are subjected to misogyny and subjected to a sex based discrimination and so on.

So it's absurd that this should be a changed. I see that, also the language changes and if we don't have our language, if we don't have words for our problems and for our sex, we can't fight sexism. If there is no sex, we cannot fight sexism, and we cannot defend women's places, women's safe spaces. Women's organisations are also mainly targeted. Everywhere there are sitting some trans rights activists and we have a huge fight for the possibility of abortion. And if it becomes a matter of people and not of women, we cannot fight for it.

We had a huge shitstorm about one of the oldest lesbian gathering. They gather since the seventies and now they were accused of transphobia because they also, they already include the people that call themselves trans women.

But, this gathering didn't explicitly invite trans women. So, some, organisations, took back their financial support and there were a huge media coverage about how transphobic, this lesbian gathering is.

So everything is under threat like how the public space, it's not a free for every woman to use if every single place where women are naked, where women are vulnerable, it's open to any male who wants to, so yeah, I think it's outrageous and it must be fought.

Raquel: And thank you for fighting against this.

I wonder if these legal proposals and these policy proposals are organic among the local population, I mean, do they represent grassroots demands from the Spanish and the German population? Can we start with Tasia please?

Tasia: No, they are not the concerns of our country in unemployment and economic crisis. No.

TV shows on Netflix make a lot of propaganda, if aware of these transgender laws, but people are indignant with the frivolity of politicians.

 Spanish women, we have, 80 murders in a year because they are women and there is also a huge pay gap. work is temporary and low pay. So we know that Spain is also one of the countries with the highest number of men who pay for sex, these are the preoccupations or concerns and not the identity laws.

This is only a frivolity and instability of the politicians which are idealistic and not worried by the material reality of women and the real violence that we suffer every day and the parties don’t see that is something real and not an idea.

And also, I wanted to tell you something, this week, in Spain, gender critical feminist, we are indignant because a killer who killed a woman with a hammer, and then he ejaculated in her body when she was dead. This killer says, now he's a woman because he wants to go to a prison of women. He also wants a lower sentence.

So we are all of us. We are united in social networks, um, in the streets because this is terrible. And also the queer, the trans activists are telling that this is only isolated cases because patriarchy for them is only isolated cases. It’d something that never happened because they don't suffer the reality that we suffer every day.

Raquel: Yes. Absolutely. What about you, Victoria?

 Are these legal and policy proposals organic to the German population?

Victoria: Short answer is no, not at all. It's not organic. We have a huge, especially under Corona, we have rising numbers of femicides and violence against women. The women's shelter is usually overcrowded and violence against women is a huge problem, but it isn't addressed properly. And, now the impact and the legal proposals are widely unknown because I don't know if you know the old manual by Dentons and Reuters, the strategic paper.

Raquel: Oh, yes. I know. I know what you're referring to, but could you explain it to our audience please.

 Victoria:  Yes, this is a strategy paper by a huge …

Raquel: It's a legal chamber, right? Dentons is a is law chamber.

Victoria: Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. And Reuters is one of the most important media organs. They published a manual, how to install these trans rights, even for kids and teenagers, it's called Only Adults, into European law. and they have some key strategies communicated in there.

And I think strategy number seven, or one of the main strategies is to avoid huge media coverage. And this is exactly what is happening. There is no media coverage until we started working. No one knew about those law laws except some queer activists, who only said: this is a human rights things. ‘No woman, will lose anything by this’ and there's nearly no media coverage at all, especially no critical. And if there's a media coverage it's always in favour of the legal proposal, from the main media outlets. Media, activists and most politicians deny that there is a conflict between trans demands and women's rights.

So nearly no one knows about this, except the activists and, those, they convinced that those laws are necessary. And I can see why, because everyone who hears about this is outraged and says that this can't be true. but if show, if I show them the papers, they say it's crazy.

Raquel: Yes, it is. And we're going to include a link to this leaked document and an article about it when we share these FiLiA podcasts.

 I just wanted to clarify something that Tasia was talking about, which is that the woman that she referred to who was her name is Vanessa Santana.

She was stalked by a man, he raped her and then he murdered her with a hammer. And then the name of that man is Jonathan Robayna. And the victim's family is now saying he is a killer, he is not a her and the cousin of Vanessa has been speaking to the media. And today there's an article in which she's quoted as saying, my cousin's murdered is called Jonathan, not Lorena. And he's a man who has always been a harasser of women.

So, so we're seeing that there's tangible implications to this law proposal. They are not just theoretical debates.

Based on everything that you two have mentioned, what really strikes out, uh, stands out to me is that in essence, both Spain and Germany are countries that currently have in place laws that consider women, particularly immigrant women, to be merchandise through the law and the sex trade. And now these efforts are seeking to further de-legitimise the rights of women sort of reduce and lower the status of women even more by taking away the rights that women already have based on their sex. So I think that there's a connection there that is worth exploring.

So I was wondering if both of you could speak about the response from mainstream feminist organisations to sex self-ID, or gender identity law and policy proposals. Are they supporting these proposals or are they tending against them? If we could start with Tasia, that would be great.

Tasia: In Spain, almost the major feminist’s association have protested against these laws. And this is because Spain has one of the most active feminist movements in the world. We also have those top feminist writers with several generational, brilliant theorists of developing, in the school of feminism, which is the feminist, equality which was initiated by the philosophers. So prestigious intellectuals are opposing these laws. Together with the feminist with street activism.

And this is very important to block that law and also the, for the most party has infiltrated many feminist’s institutions. And put them in the hands of trans activists but Spanish feminists are gender critical.

So now, various historical militants of feminism in Spain, together with women of different ideologies are in the Contra el Borrado de las Mujeres. And in addition to this organisation, there are many other rad fems, which are opposed to the law, for example, there is one that is made up only of teachers focusing only on the education system and the effect of the queer theory on identity theory. So yes, we are against this law.  

Raquel: What about other organised feminist organisations?

Or do you feel that the majority of long time feminists like well-known feminists have positioned themselves against the law?

Tasia: We have, I don't know if this is the word we have a registry or a place where the association can put their selves and their history. We have a registry where they are only associations and only association that are there are against the law.

And they signed against the law. Only a few associations that are phantoms like ghosts, like ghost are not against that law. And if you see which are the names of this association? Are all of them link it to prostitution or, well, they say it's a sex work. If you see the name of this organisation that are with identity theory, they are all in the prostitution industry and similar, and they are ghosts. They are not association with a long trajectory or history in feminism. Spanish Feminists are gender critical.

Raquel: Well, that's great to know that that's wonderful to hear.

You listed many of the problems with this policy proposal for women. So what has been the response from mainstream feminist organisations to these proposals? Are they supporting them or are they protesting against them?

Victoria: The thing is that the mainstream feminist organisations are mainly, either institutionalised and they receive government money, And/or are queer feminists and they mainly focus on the gender pay gap and the care work that lays mainly on the shoulders of women, which are also important points, but not as important as the problems we are facing now.

And, ironically, there are also huge discussions about a Frauen quota, which is the ratio of women in managing boards, et cetera, but it becomes obsolete as soon as every man can say, I'm a woman. And so the quota fulfilled.

And there are also huge discussions about language, like how to include every gender because we have gendered nouns.

For example, a male student is a ‘student’ and a female student is a ‘studentin’ So how to address them properly so even non binaries are included, et cetera, at the moment, so I'm a bit envious about you, Tasia.

 At the moment there's some kind of generational conflict.

There's nearly no feminist movement anymore in Germany. The institutionalised feminist organisations, or at least those who call themselves feminists are mostly in favour of the law proposals. The Frauenrad and an organisation which is some kind of association of female lawyers, and leftish organisations, they're all pro trans and most are publishing articles and hosting events for trans or against so called TERFs.

So, women who say women is a women and not a man can be a woman only Emma, which is a decades old feminist magazine, which is published by Alice Schwartzer who's a huge feminist icon in Germany, covered the issue pretty critically and in favour of women. But, I think, and there are some radical feminist organisations, but they mainly focus on prostitution.

And, we just woke up last year about what's happening now, but I think, we are witnessing the rising of a new movement, because I'm networking with lots of women, older or younger and lots of saying, yeah, I couldn't work with what they call queer feminism. I don't care about, yeah, identity is or something like this. I care about misogyny and I never found my feminist home, but now we are gathering together and we are growing stronger. So this is the thing to be very optimistic about, I think.

Raquel: Yes, there is. I was just about to ask you, is there resistance to protect sex based rights in your country?

Like, would you say that now you've gone from this stage of individual women who are concerned to individual women who are concerned and are becoming organised,

Victoria: Yeah, things we’re just getting started. But we are growing stronger every day. And, I I've heard from a few associations who are getting registered. and, I think it's, it's starting, but it takes some time because we don't get government money, all of us are women who are working, who have most of us have kids, family, elderly parents to take care of.

But, we are doing it in our free time, but we were so far pretty successful, I think, in relation to the risk resources we have, because what we managed was to get some kind of media coverage and to get the discussion rolling and to get the politicians to defend their position or to at least think about what they're doing with women's rights or that they are infringing women's rights.

And, and to show them that we see what they are doing and we hold them accountable. And this is growing day by day. So I'm pretty optimistic. Yeah.

Raquel: That's excellent. That's excellent to hear.

Tasia, is there organised resistance? Can you tell us a little bit more about resistance to the erasure of women?

How did this start it and what is it up to?

Tasia: It is started, maybe one year or two years ago. I think that one year, but, from that moment we did a lot of things. So it looked like we were working for 10 years. We were insulted because we are criticising a new Project of Law. They use all the Project of Law with different topics to boost the concept of gender identity. And this is a big danger.

So we are everyday working in speaking with politician, with institution, with a school of lawyers and different independent radios with different association to make bigger the feminist moment. And we are apart from the political parties, because all the political parties are not feminists.

I don't know if they are misogynists, all of them, but they ignore us. They, for example, in the parliamentary debate, they said, we are the feminists. We are transphobic. They say this was the interpretation of all our work and our arguments. Right now we have a coalition government of the socialist party and Podemos, which is a party of the new left. But most want to pass a law of self-identity.

So they presented their reading to parliament, we sent reports to all the political parties, but the left wing parties, as well as the pro-independence parties in the Bask country and Catalonia, voted in favour of the Bill and they totally ignored women's rights and said in parliament horrible things about us, like we are transphobic.

The right said no to the bill, but for different reasons, probably especially the strength, right, different reason than the women rights, I think, they prepared in the right they use many of our arguments in the parliamentary debate. So they read the reports that we sent them.

And we also had a meeting with them, before the parliamentary debate. And also they present to the constitutional court, they want identity law in Catalonia. so, well, I think that our organisation is concurring a lot of things, but the political parties are difficult to persuade, to be aware of our arguments.

But, I don't know. I really don't know, but I hope we will win because every day we are stronger and we are a lot of women. It is not something that's small or individual or disorganised it is something very structured. I think we probably, will be stronger and stronger every day.

Raquel: It’s not just like hundreds of women, it’s like hundreds of very angry women, which is just wonderful because it means that things get done and you know what, I do have to commend them, some parties for listening to the arguments of women. Ideally I think that so many feminists and women's rights campaigners, ideally we want left wing parties.

And luckily in Spain you have the PSOE party that is actually listening to women, which is not happening in a lot of other countries. The solution is that we want these parties to stand up for women. And obviously we do. Also, it sounds like Spanish women are doing the business of politics.

The business of politics is you talk to everyone and you persuade everyone of your arguments and you try to reach as many people as possible and convince them of your arguments. even if they happen to be from the right, like the popular party.

Tasia: The Project of Law should do the politicians not us, but, I’m happy if they use our arguments to the PSOE or to the constitution nonrecourse or different things, but we are doing a lot of effort.

I hope they don't be traitors because now the socialist party has promised to reach an agreement with Podemos to maintain the coalition government. We hope they feel more fear from us and our votes than from Podemos, but I don't know this is, this is difficult really because the power being in the coalition can be in risk if they listen to us, but the feminist vote was also something historical for the PSOE.

So I think that they are in a very complicated situation.

Raquel:  Hopefully they will realize that they depend more on those thousands of angry women who are the historical feminists of the women's rights movement in Spain, more than all sort of fringe or queer theory and postmodernism.

However, that's my opinion, but what you're mentioning and what Victoria was mentioning too, this is the democratic process.

It's exactly how the democratic processes should operate. Ideally, as you mentioned, Tasia, it should be politicians who are researching all these topics and researching what are the most sensible positions that will help most of the population. But because of how things have happened, it is ordinary women from all walks of life who are coming together and saying, we object to this because of X, Y, and Z. And now politicians are listening, politicians from different political parties from across the political spectrum are listening to the voices of women and are saying those arguments in parliament and voting accordingly, which is the complete opposite of how trans activists operate. The way that they operate is they have closed doors, private meetings with people in power, politicians, members of the media, academics.

And, you know, they have closed doors meetings to say, we want this policy and you have to push it through in a very authoritarian way.

The way you, Tasia and Victoria are going about it, this is how democracy should work, which is everything's open, everything is transparent. I am saying my arguments in public, in private. It doesn't matter who the audience is because it's the same argument. So if I may, I want to ask both of you.

 Have you experienced personal backlash for your positions on this topic? Has there been repercussions or have any of you experience any form repercussions because of your support of sex-based rights?

Victoria: Yes, but first I want to add something to what you discussed before, about the political spectrum, because it's very interesting because I witnessed the same in Germany. Most of us women are from the far left to the middle, to the greens, but nearly none of us were conservatives.

But, ironically only the conservative union, the party of Angela Merkel holds a position, which isn't eroding women's rights. So all the other parties like Greens, Left, SPD, and FDP are actually eroding women's rights. And, they answer us as exactly like you told Tasia, they say you're transphobic, you're an enemy of human rights and they call us things only because we say, look, there is a conflict and please find a solution for this because our rights, our safety is in danger and they don't answer with arguments. They just answer with a slurs or two Green politicians even called us TERFs on Twitter. And I think it's outrageous.

And it's, it's the same as you, as you said, Tasia, only the far right parties in addition to the conservative union, argues against self- ID, but, with the wrong premises, they aren't feminists. They are against us because it's queer and not because they are feminists. They are not, they're not defending women, but they're just defending this new stuff, it's pretty shocking to see. We are half the population. We are half of the voters. It's pretty disappointing to see how less our voices are heard. but, similar to you, we see that some of the arguments we communicate are used in speeches.

People are starting to think, because this is the first time that they have heard another position because everything they knew was the trans position or the pro trans position, because as you said, Raquel, they worked behind closed doors. No one knew what was happening there. And now it's the first time that they hear a counter position and that they hear our perspective. And I really hope that they consider it.

But to answer your question. yeah, I've had some pushback, but only minor. I lost some friends who are strong, trans rights activists. And I left my own, political group because from the back door and like 70% of those were radical feminists, even the males. And they had a sexism manifesto, but, the IT person, included trans inclusive language into this without anyone knowing. And this is against the agreements in the group.

And no one was delighted by this, but they didn't care enough to do anything against it. And then I said, okay, I'm out. I do my own thing. And now I work with women only where things like this won't happen I'm pretty sure.

Raquel: Yes. And thank you for letting me know.

Tasia, how about you? Have you experienced any backlash as a result of your support for sex-based rights?

Tasia: Yes. Truly, for example, by Facebook, a lot of people tell me things like, I wish you will be dead or things of that, or, tell me, I am a transphobe every day, transphobic, and also I’m going to publish a book in a university press.

When my book is in the press it’s very near to be published, they call me and they tell me they are not interested when I have a contract. And also, when I sent my paper for scientifical review, they tell me, they are not going to send the paper to the peer review without explanations.

And then I see that in the board equipment of this review, there are a lot of queer people and also they constantly try to fire me from my work, for example, they call other  candidates to apply for my post and they are linked to Podemas

And the defence or the sex work positions or queer theory.

So everything is quite evident, but, in a few occasions they do something that is clearly illegal, really every day. But now I get used to it. I am going to be in that battle and I don't mind what they want to do with that.

In the other topic, Victoria said, it’s incredible that parliament is not listening to us, because they prefer to put the desires of men ahead of the rights of women.

And even they don't see that there is a conflict between rights. They don't see, or they don't think it’s possible that there is a conflict between two rights, maybe gay rights in, in a place and women rights in the other. They could see that. But no in the parliament, they only see human rights. The trans activists say: they are the transphobic people you don't have to listen and only say, conservative things.

So, the rights of women are totally ignored. I don't know. I cannot understand how they cannot even think there are a conflict of rights. They are not at that point.

 We say, of course they are not right. Their desires, men’s desires this. But we cannot start from a point where they see a conflict, but not.

Raquel: Yes. And I'm so sorry that you've gone through that Tasia. It sounds like every single woman who speaks out has a mountain of virulence but what you're doing is so important, what every single one of us and the women who are standing up for sex-based rights, it's so important. And that's why there is such a strong backlash.

However, obviously our position on FiLiA is that nothing justified the death threats and the violent threats that you have been receiving. And so that is helpful to hear.

I would like to know if you could briefly tell us what is the current state of sex based rights in your country? Does your constitution, or is there any other legislation in your country that protects sex, Victoria, can we hear from you first?

Victoria: Yes. German women are allowed to vote since 1919, so about 102 years. And in 1985 laws about equal rights were installed. So women gained independence also about finances they could have their own bank account and something like this.

And, since 1986, we have maternity rights. A law that protects pregnant women. So they have a right to not work six weeks before and eight weeks after childbirth getting paid and without getting fired, et cetera. And in 1958, Germany agreed to the CDAF, the Committee on the Elimination of Discrimination against Women and in the nineties, since the nineties, they promote equality between the sexes and the workplace.

And in 2018, the Istanbul Convention against Violence against Women was installed, but it's still not fully implemented. And as I said, we have future problems with rising numbers of femicides and violence against women's and overcrowded women's shelters. so we still have a lot to do, but legally, women are equal and protected under German law.

Raquel: But are they protected as a sex?

Victoria: It says, men and women are equal in front of the law and we have special maternity rights but otherwise I think it's the CDF or CEDAW which is a base for it.

Raquel: Yes. And CEDAW has sex on it.

And there's a lot of conversations about CEDAW taking place at the moment. So there's an interesting connection.

Tasia, how about you are, what is the current state of sex-based rights in Spain? Does your constitution or similar legislations protect explicitly sex?

Tasia: Yes. the constitution says that no one can be discriminated on the basis of sex. They use the word sex.

 In addition, we have a law for equality between women and men and use the word women and also this law says that discrimination is on the basis on sex, we have a regulation in, in this law about electoral quotas. Equality in the field of sport and aggregated statistics.

We also have a law that punishes violence are we against women, but only in the intimate partner sphere. So between couples in the context of the marriage or with the boyfriend but this law uses the word gender by your gender. And I think that they are increasingly ambivalent with it because they use the word gender and gender is not as clear as sex. This is something different.

Spain has signed the Istanbul Convention. And also CEDAW and the women and the declaration against violence against women of the United Nations.

So Spain has a signed a lot of convention which says the word sex and the word ‘based on sex.’

But now, we have this kind of laws that use the new term gender. In the past, it was clear that it means a gender sexist stereotypes, but now gender is something like identity or femininity, like something good. So I don't know.

 The feminist movement in Spain are not happy with the word gender anymore.

Raquel: Yes. Yes. And thank you for explaining that. Just to issue a correction, the CEDAW that we just mentioned, the Convention the Elimination of all forms of Violence Against Women does say ‘women's rights on the basis of sex’.

I'm so glad that in Spain, you have this wonderful piece of legislation, which is the organic law was passed in 2007, the 22nd of March of 2007, which talks about the effect of equality of men and women, because it says sex, sex, sex, all over the place it mentions the word sex 85 times. Good to know that there are those protections in place.

In Germany is obviously a little bit trickier because of the language issue. But thank you for explaining that Victoria as well.

Did you want me to say something?

Victoria: Yes, I forgot to mention one of the most important things, the Grundgesetz which is like the most important law in Germany, in article three, it says ‘every human is equal in front of the law. Men and women are equal, have equal rights and that the state wants to eliminate discrimination against women wants to work on the equality between men and women.’

 And then the third sentence is very important because especially as the Greens are working on it, to include something else into this, because it says ‘no-one must have something negative or positive in discrimination based on Geshlecht, meaning sex or gender. Which, which I said can also can mean sex or gender as well. So, because it isn't specified if it's a social gender or biological gender sex, it can mean both, there is explicitly said that no one may be discriminated on basis of sex.

So, and now the Greens want to include gender identity into this.

This is another fight that we are fighting, but we can't fight on every front. It's exhausting because they're working on every level to include gender identity everywhere.

Raquel: Yes. And I bet they're also working to put that in local councils and local policy as well.

I wanted to ask you, both legislatively speaking, what happens next in your country? Do you consider that the events of May 18th and May 19th are final victory, or do you consider that to be a temporary measure? Can we start with Tasia please?

Tasia: Well, this victory is only a battle. the war is not won but I think that we will win at the end, maybe not now, but we are very persistent

We are a lot of women and we are now organising internationally, like in this podcast. So I think we have to go on with the same. So I'm optimistic.

Yeah. That's wonderful. It sounds great to hear that. It's

Raquel:  Yeah. That's wonderful. It sounds great to hear that. It's like, well, there's so many of us, you can’t stop her.

Legislatively speaking, we know that the PSOE abstained which sort of halted the law a little bit, but what happens next in Spain with this law proposals? Because we know that the Ministry of Equality is very determined in the significant opposition of so many women.

Tasia: Now they have the socialist party who have the intention of passing self-identity is by definition without filters.

They are thinking in the testifying for people. For example: To put for example, a friend of the person who says he’s a man, then the man who says he’s a woman, a friend of this person says, yes, okay, you can be, women. Of course, feminists think this is a joke, this is something totally stupid.

Trans activists are not happy neither with that, with that possibility but the socialist party are thinking that kind of stupid idea.

Well I think that if, finally they support that law then probably the extreme right parties go to the constitutional court or even that people that has problem with that law, especially women and children, go to the Supreme court and the constitutional law in Spain. And with time probably feminist point of view is going to be a stronger because the consequence of the law is very huge. So at the end self-identity is something, post-modern delirium, which is based on the four week to the medicine, the doctors and the ideas about medicine that are anti-scientific, they are like anti movement. So they cannot win.

Raquel: Like the people who oppose climate change and things is that, I was saying that it's another analogy is the people who say climate change is a hoax, you know, it doesn't exist. You know, it's like, well, the nature and reality is going to play out either way. You can't really fight against biology in a sense.

But thank you for explaining that because that's a crucial point. What happens next.

 So Victoria, legislatively speaking, what happens next in Germany?

Victoria: For now, the law proposals were rejected but the thing is we have a huge election in September, where the government will be voted for the next four years.

And until September, there are only a few sessions left. So before September, they won't be any more actions possible because, I don't know how many sessions are, or conferences or sittings are left. I don't know, maybe three or five or four, maybe six, but there isn't enough time to put it through.

But, the Greens already said, announced that they will do everything in their power to push the laws through. So we have to use this little time that we have now to higher the pressure on politicians and on media and to, to try that everyone sees through it because it's a postmodern ideology. It's not based on a physical reality. It's absurd. And as you said, it's anti-scientific because human's are two sexes since the beginning of mankind and it won't, it won't change if you want it or not, it won't change and no one can change the effects. This won’t change as long as human can exist.

So, we have to clear up the language we have to make clear what, what is happening and we have to use this time. So we will see what happens after September. We think that they will push through, but we hope that we can use this time, or we were trying to use this time to, to create a huge pushback.

And, what you said Tasia about the international solidarity? I think this is also, very empowering and it's overwhelming how much support there is from everywhere around the world, because everywhere women have nearly everywhere, we have the same problems, not only with misogyny, but also we see trans rights activism.

And, it's so important to share and to lift each other up and also to share information because in the second and third hearing the, the conservative party who was against the law changes, mentioned the decision of the high court and the Kiera Bell case. So, and the more evidence comes up, the more arguments come because rational arguments are on our side, but we have, we need more, we need more as absurd as it is, more evidence to prove that what is happening is wrong and it's dangerous.

And, the more people come through and the more people testify the more de- transitioners speaking up the more the public will see that this is not a good idea.

Raquel: Yes. I was trying to follow the developments of that week, May 19th and 18th with friends who had friends in Germany and were tweeting also, giving a live account, what was happening.

Yeah, that Kiera Bell's name was mentioned and her experience was mentioned in the German parliament. And I'm sure that Kiera would appreciate knowing that, but it's a test. And in that they were also talking in parliamentarian for also speaking about the issue for children and the harms of puberty blockers, and arguments in favour of sex-based rights and protecting sex-based rights to have been made by feminists are reaching these houses of Congress in different countries and that's happening hopefully will continue to happen on a worldwide scale.

So it's a testament to the power of women's voices that maybe we were having these conversations anonymously amongst ourselves, and it's like that now they're being heard in different contexts. so our final question is.

What would you like our English speaking audience to know about what is happening in your country regarding this topic?

What would you like our audience to know about the Spanish situation and what would you like our audience to know about what is happening in Germany? Can we hear from Tasia first?

Tasia: Oh, well really. I have explained that, I think that the trans activist movement is a sexist movement.

Made up of men who deny the existence of patriarchy and who think that women have a privilege. they have decided to take away the rights we have won but now we are the women who are organising ourselves internationally.

 Of course we will not allow them to remove our rights, which are recognised by the CEDAW and the different conventions and international treaties and our local laws.  Women are together and not only Germany, Spain, United Kingdom, but also Japan in the last week. And also in Australia, in Sweden, in lot of countries around the world, they are fighting in some states of United States. They are, they're stopping some of these crazy laws and rules. So we are all to work together. I am very optimistic and I see this is like the domino game.

When United Kingdom do their resistance, maybe, you think you were alone, but then, women in all the world are doing the same and following your steps. So we are much more than the number that we can think. I am very surprised with Japan in Asia and very far places from the United Kingdom, it’s happening the same and women are saying no, and they are using our argument and they are inspired with our daily battle.

Raquel: Yes. Yes. And it truly is beautiful to see the resistance and how it's gone global, and the power of women's voices.

What would you like our English speaking audience to know about what has happened in Germany?

Victoria: Yeah, there's not much that I can add to Tasia’s wonderful statements because of I think we're all in this together. We are half of the world's population and we are facing around the world, not only in Japan, in India, nearly everywhere you can imagine are facing similar, in addition to ‘normal’ misogyny, we are facing the same problems with this new men's rights activism.

It isn't a niche topic. it's a problem for every one of us. And, we need legal protection and we deserve it. So we have to, we have to defend it because our rights are fragile and our rights are relatively new in Germany. As I said, we just can vote for a hundred years.

We have, legal equality since 60 years, and this can be taken away. So if you're the English speaking audience, if you're in the country and you don't know what is about trans rights in your country, look it up because it may be happening right now.

And, yeah, I think it's wonderful the international solidarity and that we lift each other up, altogether and we help with arguments with cases with studies and, I'm pretty optimistic that we will win in the long run because women survived so many things we will survive this.

Raquel: Yes. Yes. Very beautifully put.

 In social media sometimes I read a couple of comments about, oh, well, you know, this is just a temporary thing. It's not a final thing. It's not a final victory. And my response to that is unfortunately in patriarchy, you know, it's like, there's no final victory.  In 2021 women in Germany, women in Spain, women having to fight to stay that women are human beings in their own, right, independent from men, and you would assume that that's a battle that has been won thousands of years ago.

You know, there was a very famous, counsel that the Vatican did. He was like in the 14 hundreds, whether women are human beings and that vote was determined by one vote. But that decision was determined by one vote saying that women are indeed human beings.

So that was hundreds of years ago. And here we are having to fight that fight, that exact same battle in Congress, you know? So I think that unfortunately we have to keep fighting these battles, but we are moving forward little by little, the more that we fight them, you know, I don't think that there's ever going to be a moment in which all of us can say, okay, so we stopped the laws. so now we can just all go home, or, we stop this legislative proposal, this policy proposal. so now that's done.

No, unfortunately we have to continue building that international solidarity to fight in all of the different fronts. so I think what happened a couple of weeks ago in your countries is remarkable.

It's so inspirational. It was so inspirational to all of the women that are here in the UK.

As soon as the news went out, that Spain had voted the way that they had, and the Germany had voted the way that they had. I just told the few trustees, it's like, we have to do a podcast with these women, we have to get one of them from each country, ah, it was just this sense of excitement and happiness and just all, you know, like just women being in awe that it's actually happening. It feels like it's a live topic. So thank you both. So, so much for speaking with us and we're just delighted that we pulled this podcast between three women together.

Any final comments from you?

Tasia: No, it was only that I am very grateful, for the opportunity of being with you here, because it’s really an inspiration for the Spanish. Well, excuse me for my English is not very good. In my organisation. There are people that speaks much better by the way, thank you very much. I am very happy to have been with feminist with international movement of feminist. Thank you.

Victoria: Yeah, I just want to thank you too, for the opportunity to tell the English speaking world what's happening right now and what we are facing and to be able to speak with the both of you. Thank you very, very much.